The Next Best Picture Podcast - Interviews With "CODA" Director/Writer, Sian Heder & Actor, Troy Kotsur

By Daniel Howat 

​If there's any hope that writer-director Sian Heder has for her Sundance-winning film "CODA," it's for her actors to get the recognition they deserve. It's a fair hope that her actors, including deaf performers Marlee Matlin, Troy Kotsur, and Daniel Durant, would receive accolades that so rarely come to performances like these. The Oscar-winning Matlin is one of the rare exceptions, though Heder notes Matlin still hasn't had the career she deserves. "CODA" centers on Ruby, a hearing child of deaf adults, played by newcomer Emilia Jones. Roughly 40% of the film is comprised of ASL, something that brought unique challenges for Heder. In a conversation with Next Best Picture, Heder discusses the missed opportunities she sees when creators avoid casting actors with a disability and why she wants the world to see Troy Kotsur and Daniel Durant as major stars.

​Speaking of Troy Kotsur, watching "Children of a Lesser God" as a 17-year-old, he promised his friends that he would work with Marlee Matlin one day. Thirty-five years later, he's made good on that promise in "CODA." Kotsur still recalls the impact of seeing Sign Language on screen all those years ago. Though films like "Sound of Metal" and "Feeling Through" were nominated for Academy Awards just last year, it's still a rarity to see deaf representation at the movies, which is why Kotsur is honored to star in a film that could inspire a new generation of young people. In a conversation with Next Best Picture, Kotsur discussed how the story of "CODA" parallels his own family and how he collaborated with director Sian Heder to bring authenticity to the film.

​Both podcast interviews have been transcribed below as well.

​Sian Heder Interview (Transcribed)

This is your second feature film after "Tallulah" in 2016, and of course, you've directed plenty of TV. I'd love to know: what did you learn from "Tallulah" that you took into "CODA?"

Never work with babies.

Okay!

(Laughs) No, that's such an interesting question. I think what I took from Tallulah is just how important that connection with your actors is. Forging a lot of trust and a really safe space in which to work and making sure that your actors feel connected to you and trust you because it's an incredibly vulnerable thing. It doesn't matter how famous you are or how much you've worked; I think you really have to believe in your director and believe that they are protecting you and guiding you.

So it was interesting to have those relationships on "Tallulah" with Elliot (Page), and Allison (Janney), and Tammy (Blanchard), and then to go onto "CODA" and really at first, especially with Marlee, Daniel, and Troy, be working with an interpreter, which is what I thought I was going to do on the first day. And then I realized how important that direct connection was to me and how much I really didn't want someone else in the middle of that relationship because of my experience working on "Tallulah" and the value that I placed in that direct connection. I had been studying Sign, and I went to Troy, Daniel, and Marlee, I think after the first take, and I said, "Hey you guys, I really just want to communicate with you directly. Is it okay if we sign directly, and we'll also have the interpreter there to jump in? But I really need this connection with you, and I need to be looking into your eyes and have you looking into mine, for you to see the emotion on my face, and all of that." And they were like, "Yes, please!" I think they were feeling it too.

And it was amazing! I think we just found a totally different way for me to work, to be communicating directorial thoughts with my body and my face and through Sign. That was a really incredible experience. And I feel like we even developed stronger relationships than I did on my first film. I mean, they were all amazing relationships with my actors, but there was something about the way we had to work, and the way that we chose to work on "CODA," which really was a very heightened level of connection.

Can you dive a little deeper into that? That's a really fascinating idea of having to direct with your hands and your body as opposed to your words. How did that change the way you directed? How were you able to communicate the right tone or the right inflection of how you wanted things to come across?

Well, it's so interesting because as a director, words are really important, but also words can mean different things to different people. I mean, there are plenty of times when I've given a hearing actor a note and said a word that means something to me, and it means something different to them. You watch a performance sort of go sideways, and you go, "Oh wait, that's not what I was intending." So it's always a process to learn the language that that particular actor speaks because every actor works differently. So actors love a lot of notes, and they want a full emotional map of the scene, and some actors don't want that. They just want reassurance, or they want one thing to think about.

It's always a process to find that with each individual, and it was the same in this case. I worked differently with Marlee than I did with Daniel or Troy, or Emilia. But I think there was something very cool - my Sign was limited. I was conversational, but I couldn't express big ideas. We did always have an interpreter there to jump in, and plenty of times, if there was a real nuance to the conversation that we needed to clarify, that person was jumping in. But there was a lot of emotion on my face or a lot of touching where we would sort of be physical with each other. Or if I didn't have the signs, I would be gesturing, or Troy would be laughing at me because I would be making up signs. He would be like, "No, that's not the right sign. (Laughs) You look crazy right now." But you realize that as human beings, we have a lot of tools at our disposal to communicate with.

And there's a self-consciousness often about using those other tools. Even in learning Sign, a lot of people think it's just your hands and hand shapes. Well, it's not. It's your eyebrows and what they're doing. It's the emotion on your face. It's your mouth shape. It's spatial. It's around your body. So in a way, you have to free yourself up to be outside of your comfort zone a little bit. Sometimes when we talk, there's a disconnect between what we're saying and what our bodies are doing, and in a way, you can't have that in Sign Language.

I found it very freeing and actually natural to me. I mean, you see how I'm using my hands like crazy when I talk anyway. I think I'm somebody that likes to express myself that way. So there was something really fun about figuring out how to do it. And sometimes, it was simpler. Sometimes with my direction, I think I can over-talk with hearing actors where you're kind of explaining something. This was a very clear level of communication where I would go for the one thing that I really needed in that moment, and we would find a way to get there.

I don't quite know how we did it! But we did, and it was really beautiful.

​One thing I love about "CODA" is how it's this tricky balancing act of tone. You really nailed the balance. It's genuinely hilarious. We're able to laugh and have a great time with it, and it's also very moving and honestly emotional. How difficult was that as the writer and director to balance that tone?

Weirdly I always love tone that is a mashup of those two things. It's always in my work where you have intense emotion, high drama, and catharsis but also funny. And that feels like life to me. I think even in our darkest moments, there's weirdness and humor in all of that. It's definitely always been in my work, and I've been lucky, even on shows that I didn't create, like "Orange Is The New Black." Jenji (Kohan) really had my tone in the sense that she felt like those two things could live together. You could have intensely hilarious moments right up against high emotion and high stakes, and that feels real in a way. And it also feels entertaining.

And I don't think you can make an audience cry in a way unless you make them laugh. I mean, you probably can, but it's a lot easier to lead people into emotion when you open them up by letting them laugh and let their guard down, and really enjoy the characters and feel a part of this family. So that humor is just something that inherent in everything that I do. And, of course, you're always looking for where the line is. I remember Eugenio (Derbez) talked a lot about it because he's a comedian, and he came in to play the teacher, and he comes from this comedy background, and he was like, "Where the line with this guy?" This could tip over into caricature or parody. And yet, those teachers sometimes from your life feel larger than life and are big characters, so how do you walk right up to that line and still keep it grounded and real?

And I think the key in all of it is finding a reality or a grounding in all of those moments so that it never feels like the joke is there for the joke's sake. Or even that the emotion is there because you're manipulating your audience. That it's organically coming from the situations and the characters.

But Troy is hilariously funny, and even a joke on the page became so much funnier once it was in ASL because it's so visual. You wonder as you're writing, "How is this joke going to work when it's not a spoken punchline?" And yet there were moments that were so hilarious that I never could've expected to be as hilarious as they were because Troy is so inventive with his Sign Language too. Like it's taking the signs, and it's also just riffing on the signs and being incredibly creative and funny with where he's going with the language.

Yeah, Troy is a revelation. He's such a standout. And not just hilarious, but also really moving. My favorite scene in the film is the scene on the truck between him and Ruby. I'd love to hear about the visual construction of that scene. Was that a difficult scene to stage? It's a relatively simple setup, but this really powerful moment. Could you take me through how you approached setting the stage for that scene?

Yeah, it was, in a way, trying to create an environment that felt very intimate for my actors. We lived in that house for seven days. It started to feel like the Rossi house. We were all packed in there together. We actually had two cameras rolling at once during that scene because I wanted my actors to be able to find… When you do cross-coverage, because you don't know what moments are going to happen, I didn't want my actors to have to repeat it if a beautiful moment happened between them and a kind of connection happened. I wanted to make sure that I was getting both of their coverage in that one moment.

So it was a very simple setup. We had a camera on Emilia and a camera on Troy. And in that moment, actually, we started the scene, and Troy looked at me and signed, "I can't feel anything on her neck." I was definitely in a hearing person's perspective even when I wrote the scene where you sort of imagine there's some magical transference of music where Frank is going to finally understand what music is. And that's not what the scene is about. It's about him connecting to his daughter and this incredible intimacy in the effort put into connecting, and sitting close, and touching each other. So in that moment, it sort of stopped being about Frank and Ruby, and it started being about Troy and Emilia. And it was, "Emilia, you need to give this to Troy right now, and find a way to singer louder, and place your voice in a place that he can feel it. And Troy, you have to find it on her, and you guys have to work together as a team to do that." And that created this beautiful moment because it was this team effort where suddenly they both had a project, and they were trying to connect.

I remember when we finished shooting, I looked, and everyone had walked away from the set. The interpreters had walked away, the camera operator had even stepped back, and I was like, "What is going on?" And everybody was crying because it was this moment on set, and I was too, and Troy and Emilia. There are so many ways that I think those separations are put between us, and there was just something so beautiful about the effort and teamwork to connect and work together on this moment. And Troy has a CODA daughter who's the same age as Emilia, and Emilia was away from her dad, and I think they had forged this intense connection on set. It was just a beautiful, beautiful moment.

But in terms of the camera, a lot of times I felt like, especially with the ASL, it was, "How do I get out of the way, and let the language, the characters, the emotion take center stage in what's happening?" And I didn't want to be intrusive with the camera. I wanted to be intimate, and I wanted to capture those scenes, but I didn't want to impose anything on what was already happening.

One final question before I let you go. Of course, "CODA" was a massive hit at Sundance. We talk a lot about awards here, and there's awards buzz for the film. The Oscar had films like "Sound of Metal" and "Feeling Through." What will it take, do you think, for performers with various disabilities to be recognized at the Oscars in a different way? Of course, Marlee is one of the few to have ever won an Oscar with a disability. I'd love to hear what you think about different sorts of performances getting attention like this?

Over the course of, whatever it is, 92 years of the Oscars, there are so many instances of non-disabled actors being rewarded for playing a disability. I think it's something that's seen as, "Wow, that's really acting. You really went for it because you were in a wheelchair, or you pretended to be blind." And what's happening there is not just these incredible performers… There's a lot of deaf talent out there. There were many choices for each of these roles. Like you said, Troy Kotsur is a gem. He's a movie star. I saw him on stage for the first time, and he's got charisma and charm, this handsome big guy. And you just go, "This guy should be hugely famous." Daniel Durant is the same thing to me. He's a total fox. (Laughs) He should be a movie star!

I think it's about the opportunities that have been given to these actors. So when a role comes along that is a deaf role or a character that has a disability, I think creators, directors, writers - you're missing out on a creative opportunity to have that character imbued with a lived experience that is not a costume you put on. It is something you know because you've lived it. And I think these actors, beyond being deaf actors, are brilliant actors, and I would hope that they get recognized. If I have one hope for this movie coming into the world, it is for these actors to finally get the recognition and acclaim that they deserve. Because even Marlee won an Oscar when she was 19, and I think she's had a big career, but she hasn't had the career that she deserves as honestly an Oscar winner who is a brilliant actress.

I don't know. I'm so proud of what my actors did in this film. They all dug in in a way that was so committed. Whether it was Emilia who had never sung before, never had a singing lesson, who dug into that, who learned to sign, or Troy and Daniel going out on the boat every day to learn how to tie those knots and pull in the big metal doors on the nets and sort those fish. Eugenio was studying piano for months, and Marlee, to me, is also a revelation in terms of the comedy and the drama and what she can pull off. I'm hopeful for this cast to be recognized beyond anything else.

Troy Kotsur Interview (Transcribed)

Troy, we're talking just a few days after the opening weekend of "CODA." Thank you so much for talking with me today. You've been singled out so much for your performance in the film, so much attention. Has it been gratifying or weird? How has this weekend been for you?

I have mixed emotions! I'm excited. This is unexpected. It's a little bit overwhelming. It's not what I expected, but it is very exciting. I mean, wow. I just - I'm hand-less! (Laughs) Right? I don't even know what to say.

Well, I'd love to hear more about the project. I was talking with Sian, and she was telling me that you have a hearing daughter around the same age as the character of Ruby. How much of your own family's experience did you see in this project, and what made you want to sign on?

It's funny, you ask. My real-life daughter was born fifteen years ago, and I've seen her journey. And then when I got the script for "CODA…" There are so many of my friends who have CODAs themselves, and I've heard all of their stories. And then reading this script, it really depicts what's happening out there in the real world with CODAs. So I jumped at the opportunity, and I'm very glad I did. Every time I went through the script, it made me think of my own daughter. It was very much parallel.

But not like the doctor's office in the movie. It does depend. If you're in a small town, you might not have as much access, and that's why they're more dependent on their CODA child. But in a big city, I didn't need my own daughter to interpret. There are different agencies that provide that. But you have to remember: in the past, deaf people didn't have that kind of access, and so they'd have to bring along their own child to interpret. The movie gives a great example of that.

Seeing your own experience at least to some degree reflected in the story, did that affect the way that you bonded with Emilia (Jones)?

Very much so. When I saw Emilia, it reminded me a lot of my own daughter. My wife and I, we watched the movie, and she said, "That's just like our daughter!" And I said, "Yeah!" Just like her facial expressions… We just bonded almost instantly. We had this amazing chemistry. It all came together. I just had a great bond with Emilia. We felt very close, and that was a huge benefit.

So many stories about hearing loss or the deaf community are often deeply serious, but part of what makes "CODA" great is how lighthearted and hilarious it can be. Your character especially is hilarious. You and Marlee (Matlin) play off so well together. I didn't expect so many fart jokes and sex jokes. I loved it! How much were you able to improvise on set?

With improvisation, in the past, I took specific workshops with Gary Gausteen. He's since passed, but he taught me a lot about improv. That was a real benefit that I could apply to the stage, TV, film. When I got to "CODA," I said, "I really want to use improv." I don't want to limit myself with making just one decision. I want to have different emotions. Different takes to give the editors more choice. And at the same time, I know it's expensive to shoot for a whole day, and I wanted to give it as much as I could.

Secondly, when we were filming, and I was behind the camera, I would really improv to get reactions from my fellow actors. I wanted their reactions to be raw instead of just scripted and rote. I wanted to change it up. We still had the same intent, but there were different ways of reacting. And that's the beauty of supporting one another so that you really are able to capture that in the camera because then that remains. I don't want to look back and say, "Aw I wish we did it this way instead." We had the opportunity to try out different things, and that's what was so great about being able to improv.

And it's also nice that the director asked me to do that. Because there were certain things that were certain things that weren't in the script, and Marlee and I would play off one another. We had two ASL Masters, Anne Tomasetti and Alexandria Wales, who had a keen eye on what we were doing, and they were able to write that down so that it was captured, and those lines were later inserted. For example, when we're in the audience at Ruby's concert, Frank and Jackie are sitting next to each other. Jackie says, "What do you want for dinner?" And I say, "Pasta." That was all improv, and there are more examples of that throughout the film.

You mentioned working with Sian. I wanted to hear more about your relationship with her as a writer and director. What was your relationship like on set, and what was it like working with her?

With Sian, I saw that she had a very big heart and she really cared. That was obvious. She was sensitive. She wanted to understand our culture. And she did her homework. She learned Sign Language herself early on, way before the auditions. That informed the script. It made it stronger. She wrote it, and she really did her due diligence.

When we met, she was very open, respectful. A good example of that, I'll tell you an anecdote. At the Rossi house, we had the furniture set up a certain way. Anne and Marlee got there and said, "This is not fitting of a deaf environment." All the chairs were next to one another. Hearing people, you can talk without making that eye contact, but for deaf people, it's very constraining, so we switched it so people could sit opposite one another. That was a learning experience. They're used to just setting things up for the camera, but they had to reframe things to fit in with how our culture would communicate in a real, authentic deaf home. And that's just a good example of her having an open mind as a director and being respectful. What you see is very real.

What was it like receiving direction from Sian? Obviously, using interpreters to get the emotion across, did you guys develop a shorthand?

That's a good question. Most of the time, we had four interpreters on set, and they all happened to be CODAs. They would rotate. When I wanted to talk with the director, I wanted to communicate with Sian directly. She had been learning Sign Language and could communicate. If there was any serious issue, then we would enlist an interpreter. We'd had those conversations, and when Frank and Ruby are sitting on the truck at the end, there was a line when Frank was supposed to say "Thank you." But I asked Sian to come over, and I said, "I feel this is kind of weird." After Ruby sings for Frank, to just say "Thank you" didn't seem right. You know, deaf people are tired of everybody saying "Thank you." Most hearing people know that one sign, and so when you go get coffee, the person says, "Thank you." They open the door, "Thank you." But here with my daughter singing for me, that just didn't feel right.

And Sian was amenable to a different way of doing it, and instead, using my eyes and my facial expressions to express myself. She looks at me after she sings; Ruby looks at Frank as if to say, "Did you get it?" Then I smile, and I kiss her on the forehead. That was even better than saying thank you. I was happy that we went that route and that Sian was open to capturing that very tender moment. I mean, the audience is smart. I would hope so anyway.

That is absolutely the best moment in the film for me. You spoke a little bit about your connection with Emilia already. I'd love to hear about your connection with Marlee and with Daniel. I know you've worked with them before. And what it was like hanging out on the boat with Daniel.

It was amazing. We had already known each other; we had that comfort level. We used the same language. We can joke around directly. In the past, you have just one deaf role on a production, or you'd have to have an interpreter to facilitate conversation. But here, we have the opportunity to have three deaf actors that all use American Sign Language. We trusted one another.

Marlee and I, we've known each other for a long time. I've known Daniel for a while. We actually lived together at an Airbnb during production for two months. We were with each other 24/7. We got to talk, we cooked together, we joked around, and then we went to work. We got up, and we went on the boat. We really had a good rapport, like father and son. That was a benefit. And with Marlee, I already had that relationship, so it all coalesced. As actors, understanding how we were responsible and what we needed to give on set - we had that trust. It was beautiful how it came together. It doesn't often happen that way where you have more than one deaf character. It was very exciting to work with both of them.

Especially Marlee. It was quite an honor. I will never forget as a young guy, I was seventeen, and my friends and I watched "Children of a Lesser God" together for the first time. I kept saying to them, "One day, friends, I will be working with her." They just snickered. And then, thirty years later, here I am! I wish I could just break down that fourth wall and say hi to my friends in the audience, "Hey, look, I'm working with Marlee! Oh wait, let me get back to work!" (Laughs)

Well, you're from Arizona, the desert. I'm here in Las Vegas, also the desert. Are you going to be hopping back on those fishing boats anytime soon?

Ehhh. You know, I never fished in the ocean with those big waves. I mean, obviously, like you said, we're in the desert; there is no ocean. There are no whales. So you have to go far to find them. It was a different world. There weren't cities. There wasn't much traffic. It was all the waterscape. It depends on the waves and how your body reacts. You feel that sway, then even off the ship, I still felt my body swaying and my mind swaying. It was an interesting experience. Then now, coming back to Arizona, it's hard to get used to it. It took me a while to acclimate and to get out of the character of Frank. Even after we wrapped up, I kept the beard for six months. I wasn't ready to let go. I missed it. My wife complained, "When can I kiss you without the beard?" (Laughs)

So I ended up cutting it off. Frank is gone. But he's still there in the movie, so you know where to find him. It was a great experience.

You've talked about how "Children of a Lesser God" made an impact on you all those years ago seeing Sign Language on the screen, which is rare. How does it feel to be in a movie that might have that same effect for kids and young people now?

Absolutely! Based on past experience when I was younger, having that experience, that made me dream! And it took me years. It was just a matter of time. But here I am in this film, I'm looking to the younger generation, and I wanted them to have that same experience. I hope that their hopes are increased. Now with technology, there's more access. Here we are on Zoom! That wasn't in place before. It's more deaf-friendly. I can see things evolving, and I'm hoping that Hollywood has more of an open mind at this point. It's nice to have diverse representation with actors. People are people.

Absolutely. And just last year we had "Sound of Metal," and I'm finding out now that you have been friends with Paul Raci for a number of years! We love Paul! So many people fell in love with him last year, and now people are falling in love with you this year, so when are you guys going to team up and work on a film together, cause the people want it.

That is an aspiration of mine that someday I'll get to work with Paul like that. What you said about falling in love with his character, I love him in that movie. I've worked with him in so many productions. We have a very good chemistry together. We've worked as a team. There aren't very many actors out there that are real CODAs, that are professional actors like him. There are not many of those. So it's exciting to have him have a serious role, and we just have good experiences. Hopefully, there will be a future project. I would love to work with him again. But I don't know whether it's going to be theater, film, TV - we'll have to see where things go.

Before I let you go, I'd love to hear about any future projects. There are so many of us who are very excited to see what you do next.

A couple of days ago, Deadline announced that my next project would be called "Flash Before The Bang." That's based on a true story at a school for the deaf where they have eight deaf track runners. I play the coach, the track coach. This deaf team comes together, runs against other hearing schools, and they win the state championship in Oregon back in the 1980s. It's a true story, very inspirational, and I will be the coach. What's even more exciting is we'll have two deaf producers, and a deaf director, and some deaf writers, and we have hearing and deaf people working together. It's going to be a very exciting project coming up. And that will increase opportunities for young deaf actors to play those track runners. So that's exciting.

"CODA" is now streaming on Apple TV+

You can follow Daniel and hear more of his thoughts on the Oscars and Film on Twitter at @howatdk